Thursday, September 11, 2008

My True Feelings

Well, in a comment that supergoober left, he asked me this question, and I do feel obliged to answer it. But before I get to that, I looked at the settings, and got rid of the ID and word verification restrictions - just didn't realize that I had them on (or even what they were), but all is well, now. Also, you may notice that partway through the blog, paragraphs are separated by bullets. For some reason, as I typed, and hit enter after a paragraph, there was no additional space inserted. When I tried to put space in by editting this post after publishing, it wouldn't register the extra spaces I inserted, so I just added the bullets to break up the otherwise monolithic text. Sorry.

So, I figure that I will start with the goob's question:

My question for you is why DON'T you have a problem with:
folks who believe in Creationism as a scientific theory? who treat the Bible as
a scientific and historical document? who believe that homosexuality is an
abomination? and for that matter, to folks on the extreme Left and Right who,
via policy and law, effort to design a world based on their narrow views of what
a moral, just, and righteous society should look like?
Honestly, I do have a problem with those people, and with many others who cling to patently ignorant ideas. But if I let every little thing like that get to me I would have slit my wrists long ago (and trust me, I have enough desire to do that anyway, that I don't need to give myself additional reasons). In all seriousness, however, I think that you understand that I am intensely bothered by extreme religious beliefs - people who cling to an idea with unshakable faith can be very persuasive and very powerful. I am more frightened, however, of people who cling to religious beliefs but do not acknowledge them as such. Those are the people who are really dangerous and try to remake the world according to their narrow set of ideals.
But in actuality, we all have this tendency. All of us have an idea of the ideal society, and feel that our way is the best, and, I suppose, would impose that on others if we could. A vision for a moral, just, and righteous society is not bad, and I do not believe that most evangelicals in a position of power in America would remake the society in their image. It is not possible given the prohibition against establishment of a religion (which has bloated out far beyond the founders original ideals into a nebulous concept of "separation of church and state").
The greater danger comes from people whose faith is dogmatic but is in a more conventional, secular issue. I'll give you an example: Palin is pro-life. Period. End-of-story. She will not be able to pass a federal law banning abortions, even if she were president. Any executive order would be unenforceable, she couldn't write or sponsor legislation, if she had help in the Legislature, it would never pass, and even a conservative supreme court would strike it down. However, suppose Obama has an unshakable faith in the "windfall profits" tax. He has a number of different options because the issue can be framed in a way to promote class divisiveness, and there are many in the legislature who would help to pass this merely to shore up support from people who can be swayed by class envy. It would probably not ever reach a court challenge, and it would have far reaching implications in the fact that the government had set the precedent of deciding what is "too much" profit. This is a huge step towards an unsustainable socialized economy.
How about another example - one that actually occurred, and was very popular and is still causing deaths in the millions to this day. It has to do with a religious fervor coupled with Michael Moore style deceit, and a profound lack of care for the ramifications of an action. I am talking about the ban of DDT that Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring helped to push through. So thoroughly have her ideas pervaded our society, that even my mention of the chemical probably conjures up ideas of dead condors and poisoned children. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Carson was an excellent and passionate writer, and in the early sixties (1963, I think) she wrote a groundbreaking book. Its title was frightening and evocative. With the widespread use of DDT, birds were dying in record numbers, and one day soon we could face a Spring without the sounds of birdsong. It is poetic, tragic, and moving, but it is patently untrue. Fortunately for us, it came after we had eliminated mosquito borne malaria through its use. While I will agree that there was significant overuse of the pesticide that was creating DDT-resistant strains of crop pest, we could have easily curtailed the use of the pesticide for those applications. The decline of the condor and the eagle has roots in an earlier problem - the fact that many states had bounties on large predatory birds and mammals, or ignored the hunting of those animals even if there were no bounties. As a result, the populations had been decimated up to the early forties, and were protected under law around 1958 (check the date, I'm really not sure). The populations had started to rebound by the time she was touting the dangers of DDT, and, although they were not anywhere near there pre-bounty numbers, they were recovering. She used innuendo, blending of rhetoric with carcinogens and nuclear scares (very real in that era), and related pesticides with other drugs that were not even closely related. She tied DDT into chemical weapons research for WWI and WWII, which was totally untrue, and she made bold statements connecting DDT and thalidomide (the drug that was a morning sickness cure that caused horrible deformities in infants) as part of our rush to use something new without knowing the consequences. She conveniently ignored that the FDA had never approved thalidomide, and that the European and Canadian method of testing drugs on their population was largely to blame for this disaster. She cherry-picked data that supported her, and there were no scientists who read the book that did not have major criticisms of the "science" in it. However, it was very moving, and swayed people and politicians alike, and DDT was banned in the US. For a while we continued to produce it for other nations, but eventually people didn't like that either - if it is too dangerous for us, they reasoned, why should we ship it to other parts of the world to be dangerous to others?.
So DDT was completely banned, and here is the problem. There has never been a case where DDT has caused any physiological problems. Several scientists regularly consume tablespoons of the stuff at demonstrations to show how safe it is to mammals (receiving upwards of 2000 times the dose that most animals in the wild and workers in industries affected would be exposed to). Here is the real kicker, though. DDT is the most effective pesticide for controlling diseases like typhus and malaria - the two biggest insect-borne killers in history. Since the ban, Africa has been particularly hard hit, but so has the rest of the world. In total, more than 500 million people have died in areas where DDT spraying could have prevented the transmission of these diseases. This high mortality rate has crippled third world countries and kept them in constant states where there is no chance of economic viability, damning the surviving population to subsistence existences. Let me give you an example of the positive impact of DDT. South Africa began spraying in 1946, and by 1948, malaria had dropped to 10% of the cases reported in 1943. By 1950, most of Central America had wiped out malaria, dengue, and yellow fever because of DDT. Most places could count on complete eradication of these diseases in 20 to 30 years of use. It is not harmful to humans, however. In Georgia, in tests on DDT, men ingested 35 milligrams daily for 2 years and suffered no ill effects. None of this mattered, however.
Such was the power of this secular but profoundly faith-driven belief that more than 1/2 a billion people have died worldwide as a result. That's about 8% of the world's current population, so, supergoober, if you want to know what really frightens me, it isn't religious kooks who are out about the fact that all they have to back up their arguments is faith, its the secular kooks who have total faith and are willing to sacrifice millions on the altars of their belief system. Ironically, that bitch had cancer, with respiratory infections on the side, and died of a heart attack at age 56 in 1964 (and no, she was not exposed to DDT, that didn't cause her cancer). My fervent hope is that if hell does exist, she is there, treading on her little road of good intentions that are actually shards of glass flaying her feet, ankles, and calves, and that she is suffering the most horrible torments imaginable, and that some of the five hundred million plus deaths for which she is personally responsible are there to torment her as part of their eternal bliss. So know you now a little of why I am passionate about science and actually using your brain in concert with your heart. But I suppose I have digressed somewhat from my original point. (BTW, I think that the jackassery surrounding the fervor over global warming could go in this direction, too, but that is for a later date - sorry if I have offended by saying that, but rest assured that I will back up what I say with facts).
All that having been said, let me go back to something supergoober mentioned - creationism. It is not science. There is no way any idiot should ever confuse a creation myth that they believe in with scientific fact. Anyone who advocates its teaching in a public school is an ass, and should be flogged soundly for thinking anything so preposterous. If you want to teach that crap as "science" in your biblical school - fine by me, that's your right, but your still an idiot. But I also oppose the deification of Darwinian evolution by morons who have no clue about Darwin or about the faults in his theory, or that punctuated evolution is probably a more accurate interpretation of the way things have happened. Not to mention, they conveniently ignore his contributions to the early eugenics movements, racism, and his actual endorsement of "social Darwinism" in his book, The Descent of Man. This one book had a hand in promoting racial superiority theory, controlling reproductive rights of the poor and unfit, and advocating the abandonment of virtues like charity that promote survival of the "unfit". To look at Darwin without these is almost as bad as trying to claim creationism is science. Do not try to justify your belief in evolution with outmoded science from a hundred years ago - Darwin has almost as many mistakes as Lamarck, get with the program and deal with modern biology. Okay, this is probably just a pet peeve of mine, but Darwin is not the f***ing Messiah of science. The biologists who have toiled since and made actual improvements in their field of study are largely ignored by ignorant masses trying to lay claim to some pretense at knowledge by throwing his name around with the same religious fervor that creationists have. I just wish people would modernize their scientific references, I guess. So yes, creationists who try to push their views as science can go f*** themselves. If you want to believe in that as a creation myth, so what.
As to the moral, just, and righteous society, all major religions pretty much say the same thing about this, so I don't really need to retread this ground. In fact, most evangelicals fall in line with majority worldviews - I don't think that makes them right, but it makes it harder to maintain your (and my) views on many issues. And even the most ardent evangelical does not advocate the killing of homosexuals - they fall back on the "hate the sin, not the sinner" line to avoid that issue - but throughout much of the rest of the world homosexual conduct is punishable by death (stoning to death in much of the middle east for example). As strident as most evangelicals are, they do not quite get to the level of nuttiness in this country because of that little phrase, "hate the sin, not the sinner"; a mantra they use to make themselves feel better about their repressive tendencies. Where is this discussion going; I really don't know, but suffice it to say, I fear the Devil I know less than the Devil I don't.

10 comments:

theprofessor said...

I guess brevity just isn't my strong suit. Sorry.

Ivo Cerckel said...

1.
She tied DDT into chemical weapons research for WWI and WWII, which was totally untrue, and she made bold statements connecting DDT and thalidomide (the drug that was a morning sickness cure that caused horrible deformities in infants) as part of our rush to use something new without knowing the consequences. She conveniently ignored that the FDA had never approved thalidomide, and that the European and Canadian method of testing drugs on their population was largely to blame for this disaster

2.
Thalidomide was definitely known in the year 1938 and [its] defects were noted in Phoenix, AZ (USA) in a medical journal that year. It was known as a cure for Hanson’s Disease and made by [Richardson]-Merrill Co. in [Cincinnati], OH (USA). I don’t know what action was taken, but a young female doctor named Frances Oldham Kersey (or Kelsey) recognized its dangers.
Theodore, Princeton, WV/USA
(reaction under From The Times April 4, 2008 Thalidomide: 50 years on victims unite to seek more compensation Nigel Hawkes, Health Editor
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article3671815.ece

Kelsey was the lady who in 1960 only joined the US of A Food and Drugs Administration (FDA).

Once there, she further delayed thalidomide’s approval (thalidomide was marketed since 1957)
and was given a Presidential award by US of A president Kennedy for that delay.

Wikipedia says
that Kelsey is credited SINCE NINETEEN THIRTY-EIGHT with her interest in teratogens - that is, drugs that cause congenital malformations,
that 1938 was the date of the creation of the FDA,
and that Kelsey managed to be appointed there in 1960
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Oldham_Kelsey

Thalidomide was marketed since 1957.

Kelsey was only appointed in the FDA in 1960.

How can she get (all) the credit for having ‘saved’ the US of A from it?

3.
The whistle on the thalidomide drug was blown at a congress of neurologists on 30 April - 1st May 1960 in Duesseldorf. (1)

Gruenenthal, the manufacturer in nearby Aachen, cannot possibly argue it didn’t know that.

Gruenenthal only withdrew thalidomide from Europe on 27 November 1961.

In September 1961,
that’s more than sixteen months after the Duesseldorf congress of neurologists,
Richardson-Merrill made an application in US of A to allow thalidomide there.

This application was only withdrawn in 1962. (2)

And then Gruenenthal comes arguing that outside Ireland and a few other countries where it sold the drug directly, it can refuse compensation because this would be the responsibility of the licence holders. (3)

Should Gruenenthal not have informed its licence holders about the harmful effects of the drug?

4.
TO REPEAT

Thalidomide has been tested in REAL LIFE by inter alia Dr Kelsey in 1938 and some neurologists at the congress of neurologists held on 30 April - 1st May 1960 in Duesseldorf.

Kelsey and these neurologists assembled in Duesseldorf found out that thalidomide led to serious birth defects in the babies.

Gruenenthal, the manufacturer of thalidomide, knew that. Guv’mint also.

But that did prevent the Gruenental from (continuing to) marketing it.

Ivo Cerckel

ivocerckel AT siquijor DOT ws


NOTES

(1)
Chronik des Conterganfalls
Tragödie - Katastrophe - Skandal?
http://www.wdr.de/themen/gesundheit/pharmazie/contergan/chronik.jhtml?rubrikenstyle=contergan
30. April/1. Mai 1960:
Auf einem Neurologen-Kongress in Düsseldorf berichtet der Neurologe Ralf Voss über die Nervenschädigungen, die seinen
Beobachtungen zufolge durch Thalidomid verursacht werden. Die Forschungsabteilung von Grünenthal versucht daraufhin, die Nervenschädigungen an Ratten zu reproduzieren - ohne Erfolg. Grünenthal-Forschungsleiter Mückter schließt daraus, dass es sich um besondere Situationen handelt, für die Contergan nur selten als Ursache infrage kommt.
+
27. November 1961:
Die Firma Grünenthal kündigt in einem Telegramm an das Düsseldorfer Innenministerium an, ihre Thalidomid-Präparate im In- und Ausland sofort aus dem Handel zu nehmen.
+
30. November 1961:
Eine Sachverständigen-Kommission, die das NRW-Innenministerium eingerufen hat, kommt zusammen. Die Experten erklären es für wahrscheinlich, dass Thalidomid Missbildungen hervorruft.Das amerikanische Arzneimittelunternehmen informiert Richardson-Merrill die US-Gesundheitsbehörde über die Ereignisse in Deutschland und zieht vier Monate später seinen Antrag auf Zulassung von Thalidomid zurück

(2)
Wie Amerika vor der Contergan-Katastrophe bewahrt wurde
Von Martina Lenzen-Schulte
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub7F74ED2FDF2B439794CC2D664921E7FF/Doc~EAF 04FB1B60CD4F83A586AA2D7BB84170~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

(3)
“Outside Ireland and a few other countries where Grunenthal sold the drug directly it has refused compensation, arguing it is the responsibility of the licence holders.”
( Thalidomide victims in new compensation call
By Andrew Jack in London
Financial Times April 3 2008 03:00 | Last updated: April 3 2008 03:00
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6c825e5c-0117-11dd-a0c5-000077b07658.html

If the German links don’t work,
try entering the title of the articles in
http://www.google.de/

Ed Darrell said...

The populations had started to rebound by the time she was touting the dangers of DDT, and, although they were not anywhere near there pre-bounty numbers, they were recovering.

Eagle, osprey, pergrine falcon and brown pelicans were hammered by DDT, and were in rapid decline by 1960. Their recovery was made possible only with the ban on broadcast use of DDT. While there are a few political wackoes who claim eagles were in recovery, a careful read of Audubon society observations and studies through the 1950s and 1960s shows that eagles were declining despite laws restricting hunting. DDT was killing the young ones.

Rachel Carson's book is almost impeccable in its citation of scientific studies. Contrary to the claim that scientists had major problems with it, President Kennedy tasked the President's Science Advisory Council with checking out the book. In May 1963 they reported that Carson's science was sound, with one small exception: She was not alarmed enough at the dangers of DDT. They called for immediate reductions in use.

Had Carson's citations been in error, of course, it would have been illegal for EPA to ban the broadcast use of DDT. Under U.S. law, such an action must have a firm scientific basis. You may want to note that two federal courts had issued orders to EPA to speed up the review of the pesticide's registration, since, in open court in two different federal trials, the case had been made that DDT was a deadly destroyer of essential ecosystems.

Now, 46 years after Silent Spring, a few African nations are finally finding success fighting malaria, using the methods Rachel Carson recommended in 1962: Integrated pest management, study of the disease vectors, and careful use of pesticides in conjunction with barriers to mosquitoes.

I think that, if you do a survey of DDT literature in science and health journals rather than political journals, you'll find Rachel Carson was absolutely right. I have several posts on DDT use, especially with regard to malaria, at my blog, Millard Fillmore's Bathtub. Come on over and see.

supergoober said...

Holy Shit, who is Ivo and Ed Darrell? How did they come upon your blog?

To respond to Ed Darrell, purely from a philosophical perspective (given I am simply ignorant to the nuances of the DDT debate) I am occasionally brought to profound sadness re. species extinction and to near murderous outrage toward those who would by action or inaction, directly or indirectly cause species extinction.

Personally, I am in full support of any effort both nationally and internationally to raise awareness and put a halt to species extinction. But it must be weighed against the human toll of imposing such efforts. It sounds as if in your statement "Integrated pest management, study of the disease vectors, and careful use of pesticides in conjunction with barriers to mosquitoes" leads me to think that you are one to believe that humans can, should, and have always existed in concert with rather than in opposition to nature...and I agree with you.

However, if DDT's banning and the near hysteria and political fervor to impose these restrictions worldwide led to shackling emerging and poor nations of their most effective weapon against the control of Malaria which otherwise would have potentially saved half a billion lives, then I say the price is too high...and that is a huge understatement.

But I will check out your blog re. DDT and Malaria. In just reading this post and following comments, I know more about DDT then I would have ever thought I've ever want to.

Cheers...

supergoober said...

This comment is just for theProf: It was really good to simply hear that you dismiss kooks in general, both Left and Right. Being friends and knowing my outrage re. Palin, It seems as if I was pulling for some validation from you re. these concerns...so thank you. It means alot.

theprofessor said...

Don't know who the two guys are, or how they happened upon this, but whatever. I have read the science, I know that there are two sides, and I know that there is damage to ecosystems. I object to the fact that she ignored the damage that the ban would cause to human life in favor of the positive effects on the ecosystem. I am not in favor of rampant use of DDT because of concerns of concentration up the food chain (even though many of these concerns have not been proven, as such, there is significant research to show that they are valid). I do not claim DDT is safe for the environment, nor do I claim that we should go back to the previous use of DDT, but you cannot dismiss the fact that human lives have been affected profoundly by the ban of DDT. Carson advocated something being used today, but her zeal was near religious, and it did cause her to play fast and loose with the facts in her rhetoric.

I will reiterate. DDT is safe for humans. It has marginal impact on the environment when used responsibly (responsibly is the key word - it was used irresponsibly in America to stop crop pests). I think that the almost religious belief in a "balance of nature" where humans are removed from the equation is unbalanced and damaging to human beings and to the environment, but that is for a later discussion.

Ivo, I was not trying to give the US any great credit for thalidomide, it was tangential to my main point - that propaganda was used to forward a pseudo religious belief. I did not know all the research about the drug, but I know the US never approved it and Europe and Canada did - I am not saying US is the great savior as a result, just pointing out Carsons willingness to use specious reasoning.

Ed, my main point was not about the DDT, though I did go off on that a lot. I am well aware that it did have significant environmental impact, but there were many other factors that were leading to the demise of those populations of birds. To my knowledge, the research shows DDT to be safe for humans, and to have a minimal environmental impact if used responsibly. I would advocate that we look at all sides of something before just taking a step that could jeopardize millions of lives. You said that her methods were showing some success now, and that is true, but that still disregards the hundreds of millions of human lives lost in the balance. We need to balance environmental degradation issues with human issues, and recognize that at times the environment might have to take a hit to save lives, and then be repaired later. If this means some species might go extinct as a result, I am okay with that. If you are not, then we have fundamentally different priorities, and that's okay.

This was not intended to be a research paper, rather it was a response to a friend's question on what worried me about religious beliefs in politics - he is nervous about Palin as a VP choice because of her fundamentalist beliefs. I used the opportunity to rail against fundamentalism in all forms - Rachel Carson is a prime example of that. I maintain that fundamentalism is more dangerous in the hands of secular idealists rather than religious ones, because they can do more damage since they appeal more broadly and can hide the fundamentalist aspects of their beliefs and that was the point of this mostly unscientific rant. I was drawing on memory, and focusing on negative aspects, because that was the specific request I received from my friend. Either way, thank you both, ivo and ed, for sharing your opinions, because I know that the science I referenced was insufficient on both counts. I was comfortable with that because that was not the objective of the writing.

Steve T. said...

There are many Blog search engines that folks use...trust me I've gotten alot of comments from folks I don't know finding my blog through Sphere and others....may I suggest to you Prof sign up for a free feedburner account....you can burn this blog to it and it will give you stats, etc on where folks are coming from.

supergoober said...

Wow, talk about concilliatory. Better than I can muster.

Ivo Cerckel said...

I am just a thalidomide monster.
Here’s my picture
http://blogs.siliconindia.com/goldrupee

I landed here through a Google alert on thalidomide.

Of course, the US never approved of thalidomide.

Reread my reply above:
Dr Kelsey’s interest in teratogens - that is, drugs that cause congenital malformations - led her to develop thalidomide in 1938 in Ohio.
Thalidomide was marketed outside of the US since 1957.
Kelsey was appointed to the FDA only in 1960.
Yet, she got all the credit from Kennedy for having saved the US from thalidomide since … 1957.

Dynamite, says you?

theprofessor said...

Thanks for the info, ivo, didn't know that about the google alert, as a relative newcomer to the digital era, I often forget that the stuff I throw out will be popping up on alerts like that - I know that it is the world-wide-web, but actually comprehending the scale at which your comments can impact others is often difficult. Giving someone like Kelsey credit for "saving the US" is pretty damned ridiculous. I really don't know a ton about thalidomide, and youur extensive bibliography gives me a great resource - thanks again for your comments.